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Category talk:Stunt performers
Adding this category to actors I've removed this category from the stars of the show such as Kiefer Sutherland, Annie Wersching etc., for the following reason: The line between "acting" and "stunt performing" is always going to be blurred, so it's very hard to nail down definitive inclusion criteria for this category. But I believe it should be reserved for people who, in real life, class themselves as a "stunt performer", or their primary job description is a stunt performer rather than an actor. In other words, they were hired onto the show as a stunt performer, rather than as an actor. Actors on the show often do dangerous acts to differing degrees, and we have no benchmark as to what constitutes a "stunt" - for example Cheryl Rusa performed the "stunt" of being in a helicopter, doubling for Elisha Cuthbert - so do we add this categ to any actor/background performer who has been in a helicopter? I mean yes, Kiefer Sutherland performed what many would consider stunts on the show, but listing him here opens up the door to list many different actors who debatably did or didn't perform stunts. I think it's fairly simple to see if someone works as a "stunt performer, and actor" or a "actor who sometimes does stunts as part of their job". Both ways are open to interpretation, but I think it's the best way to determine if someone was hired to perform stunts on the show, or to act on the show (basically whether they were brought in by someone like Peggy Kennedy or Jason Gutierrez, or if they were brought in by someone like Jeff Cadiente). I believe that is the best use for this category, or it will clogged with all sorts of people--Acer4666 (talk) 03:58, December 30, 2012 (UTC) :With this in mind, I'd propose changing the text of this category to "This is a list of professional stunt performers who worked on 24."--Acer4666 (talk) 04:00, December 30, 2012 (UTC) :Sadly, I'm going to have to disagree since there's no other real actors/co-stars on the show who performed stunts themselves besides Kiefer, Annie & Carlos. Roger Cross should stay because he previously worked as an extra/stunt man on various other projects before his big break on the show and never needed a stunt double. :Yes, it should be only actual stunt performers for the most part but I made exception to these guys because they were given a chance to do as many physical performances that the insurance companies would allow. And stunts are pretty well-defined as anything physically-involving, doubling or simply being an background character. And since most of these stunt guys are often credited for both acting and stunt acting, I see no harm in doing this. If you don't want to add Carlos, I'll compromise on that but don't deny Kiefer and Annie's heavy involvement especially since they are seen in the Scenemakers and DVD featurettes planning out the various fight scenes and giving just as much detail to the action as their fighting counterpart. :And since no one else invests themselves much in this list on the site like they do on just identifying the unknown performers, I see zero concern. I doubt it's going to come up and if it does, simply state that two exceptions were made, no harm done and no feelings are hurt.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:05, December 30, 2012 (UTC) ::Making an exception for 3/4 specific actors that you've personally picked out and no-one else is an even worse idea. You have no basis for your claim of "there's no other real actors/co-stars on the show who performed stunts themselves besides Kiefer, Annie & Carlos.". Notice that in the scenemakers segment you're referring to when Erik Stabenau talks about how Annie Wersching is performing the fight as good as any double could, he's also talking about the actor Arjay Smith who is also performing the fight with her. Jon Braver was on hand for the scene where Morris O'Brian is choked in a bath, but Carlo Rota decided to do the stunt himself (source: audio commentary). John D. Ross was on hand to perform a fight in a gun store, but Omid Abtahi felt comfortable enough to do it himself (source: I have been in e-mail contact with him). There are loads of examples of the actors doing their own "stunts", however you want to define that (and "anything physically-involving" is not a clear cut definition at all - does running count? shooting a gun? what?). It seems you are in favour of the inclusion criteria I am suggesting (ie only professional stunt performers, by trade) but want to make an exception of these 3/4 people. But I'm afraid that's not how things are done here - we need consistent inclusion criteria for all our categories that make logical sense. We can't put at the top "This is a list of professional stunt performers who worked on 24, oh and also Kiefer Sutherland, Roger Cross, etc..." ::Not including them here is not "denying" the physical work they did on the show at all - you can write about that to your heart's content on their actor articles, but we're merely showing that they're not professional stunt performers as their main job, they are actors. If Kiefer Sutherland had directed a little portion of a scene, I doubt we'd add the "director" category to him.--Acer4666 (talk) 11:56, December 30, 2012 (UTC) :I'm afraid it's only getting complicated if you wish to make it so. I'm not seeing why you're sourcing this information when it's all well-known on this wikia and no one has ever doubted you nor has any reason to. Arjay Smith would be the equivalent of Carlos Bernard where he particpated in one fight scene but otherwise just showed up on time to say his lines. :Kiefer and Annie were involved in more than just that and the aforementioned stunts you mentioned. For instance, Annie had to swim in the scene before the one with Smith and later had to jump off a moving vehicle while firing a fake firearm as well as do the entire fake "death" scene and jump off the moat. :You seem to think that everyone should ONLY be credited here if they're an actual stunt person while I'm saying that plus anyone who was actually involved with doing stunts for a good chunk of the show. The rest of these actors wouldn't count since they were in one or a few handful of scenes as guest stars. You're trying to make it equal which is understandable but rather radical in execution since you're trying to make it apply to very small circumstances or because one actor didn't use a stunt double. :If Annie is performing her stunts as well as any double and Kiefer is impressing the likes of Jeff Cadiente and J.J. Perry then it sounds like they should be included as a stunt performer, not a mere person who decided to perform in intense torture sequences (Rota) or jump down on the floor safely (Obtahi) for a few split minutes. I'm narrowed it down to three people, two of them (Annie, Kiefer) who are both actors and temporary stunt performers for a good chunk of their job while the other is both a stunt performer and actor as listed on every official biography for that person (Roger Cross). Building on the latter, Cross even did the entire fight sequence with Carrick O'Quinn and David Kilde according to my brief phone conversation with Kilde and Kilde was especially surprised as how well timed and powerful Cross was in the scene. :This rule wouldn't apply to anyone else whether it's Glenn Morshower firing a machine gun or Gregory Itzin "killing" the character Jason Pillar, only someone who performed numerous stunts on the show's run. Kiefer does more than run around, shoot fake firearms and engage in choreographed fight scenes, he's done numerous other stunts like jumping away from the factory explosion in Day 4 (commentary from that episode with Bryan Spicer), skipping over the table to avoid Sergei's shotgun blasts in Day 8, Episode 8 (with remarks by Cadiente in that Scenemakers episode & BTS footage playing) and broke/twisted many bones as stated in several interviews about Kiefer's work on the show. :Stuntmen are also paid by the same organization that supplies actor's compensation known as SAG as shown here for general reading and many including Kilde and Edward Fernandez prefer the title "Action Actor" especially since they were sometimes given lines of dialogue or credited as part of the cast.--Gunman6 (talk) 21:28, December 30, 2012 (UTC) ::OK so as far as I can tell you agree with the criteria I am saying, with two points of disagreement: Whether Roger Cross is a professional stunt performer as his main job, and whether we should make an exception to the inclusion criteria for Kiefer Sutherland and Annie Wersching. ::Point 1 - you're saying that Roger Cross "is both a stunt performer and actor as listed on every official biography". What official biographies? (Incidentally, you ask why I am sourcing things I am saying. This is exactly why. Unsourced claims like that just slow the entire debate down). I see from Memory Alpha the following: ::This is from his official website (which has since been taken down). So, 15 years before appearing on 24, he took on some casual work as a stuntman, but decided to pursue an acting career. That is not the definition of a professional stunt performer that this list is aimed at. It's like adding "category:milkman" to an actor who used to deliver milk in his teens. ::Point 2 - You want to make an exception to the inclusion criteria for people who have performed "numerous stunts on the show's run". Except, you have still not given any clear cut indication of what "numerous" entails, or even what defines a "stunt". It's obvious you have a clear idea in your head of what these things are, but that is useless to use as a policy for this category page because it would mean having the criteria "this is a list of professional stunt performers and people who have, according to User:Gunman6, performed numerous stunts on the show. See him for whether someone can be included". ::For whatever it's worth Annie Wersching did not perform the entire fake death scene, if you watch the scenemakers about it she says that her double did the stuff on location and she did the stuff that was shot at the studio. But I'm not gonna continue arguing these specific cases as it seems you have very strong personal feelings about what constitutes someone doing a proper stunt and who is just a "mere person" who does something which isn't a stunt (I honestly have no idea how you are distinguishing these things). ::This category was created to replace Template:Stunts, which was a long list of the people on imdb who were listed under their "stunts" section. It's clear that the big name actors who happened to do lots of physical action were never intended to be a part of the list - and I think my inclusion criteria reflects that. Yours is impractical and subjective and seems to be born out of a desire to give extra recognition to Kiefer Sutherland and Annie Wersching. As I say that can easily be done on their articles, and exclusion from this category is by no means a stifling of their input to the show as you seem to think it is.--Acer4666 (talk) 12:47, December 31, 2012 (UTC) :Alright, again, a stunt (whether in the cinema or in the circus) can entail anything physically challenging (i.e. mountain climbing, running vigourously, falling down from any height) or anything else that requires extreme caution (high speed driving, sword fighting, anything involving wire-assisted action, etc.) and, yes, the actors are not stuntmen/stuntwomen by heart but they still engaged in at least five risky scenarios. The whole thing was based around the idea that they participated in stunt work, that's all. Other than Cross being a stunt performer before being on the show, the whole idea was just adding anyone who performed many stunts of any kind. :As for Annie's scene, I was merely quoting the 2009 interview I posted on her page here but this is no surprise to have the actor once again do half of the stunt work. Since you wish to be safe and avoid any confusion, you can go ahead with simply keeping it at people who are simply paid as stunt performers as originally intended. I was merely referring to the recognition the actors had earned as other reasons for why they would be worthy of being placed in this category and the fact that if I wanted to, I could spend an afternoon just posting a gallery of either actor's stunts shown on the show. On Roger Cross: Yes, he used to be a extra/stunt performer but we have also had a few stuntmen perform while credited only as actors (or both) such as Danielle Burgio. This is where I would draw the line since the person was actually consider to be of that profession at one time or another.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:12, December 31, 2012 (UTC) Stunt performers Not sure where to put this, or if this is already somewhere else (I know Acer has a huge project of identifying stunt performers), but we can move/remove it later. This is a list of stunt performers listed on the 24 IMDb page (see here) that don't have a page in the wiki. Obviously, since the accuracy of the IMDb is dubious, I'm putting it here for us to sort it out and try to pair them with potential unidentified performers, etc. * Michael Ahl * Joey Anaya * Alina Andrei * Greg Anthony * John Ashker * Marianne M. Arreaga * Loren Avedon * Matt Berberi * Matteo A. Bof * Todd Bryant * Heather Callow * Richard Cetrone * Craig H. Davidson * Darrell Davis * Mark Dobson * Shauna Duggins * Paul Eliopoulos * Heather Epper Murray * Debbie Evans * Colin Follenweider * Richie Gaona * Jason Gray * Marian Green * Tracy Hite - wife of Brian Hite * Kanin Howell - son of Norman Howell * Lisa Hoyle * Jace Jeanes * Jayme Jensen * Rick Kain * Hubie Kerns Jr. * Dorian Kingi - son of Henry Kingi, Sr. * Paul Lacovara * Shawn Patrick Lane * Tony Lazzara * Diana R. Lupo * Khristian Lupo * Alex Madison * Mike Massa * Tom McComas * Jennifer McCormick * Ed McDermott II * Bob McGovern * Cazimir Milostan * Karen Mingus * Monette Moio * Tony Morgan * Larry Nicholas * Tree O'Toole * Jane Oshita * Peewee Piemonte * Jeff Podgurski * Nicole Randall * Tony Repinski * Kenny Richards * Scotty Richards * Justin Riemer * Peter Rocca * Katie Rowe * Jean Paul Ruggiero * Elena Savko * Anthony G. Schmidt * Paul Anthony Scott * Nathan Siebring * Brian Simpson * Tim Storms * Olivia Summers * Michael J. Tamburro - most definitely related to Chuck and John Tamburro * Lewis Tan - son of Philip Tan * Steve Upton * David Wald * Justin A. Williams * Alvin Zalamea Again, if this list is already somewhere else, just remove it or merge it. Thief12 (talk) 14:17, January 31, 2020 (UTC)